Head of ChatGPT & Codex: Agents for Normal People Are HERE | Thibault Sottiaux — Silicon Valley Girl Podcast

Thibault Sottiaux: There is going to be dramatic change. Everyone is going to get their own little personal assistant on their computer that allows you to do more than whatever was possible three months ago, six months ago.

Marina Mogilko: This is Thibault. He runs ChatGPT, Codex, and the APIs at OpenAI, the tech powering most of the AI you already use every day. And he just told me that in a few months, people who don't use AI at all will get the same benefits as the ones who've spent the last two years figuring it out.

Thibault Sottiaux: Today, you have to actively prompt and be creative about what you're asking. In the future, that's not the case anymore.

Marina Mogilko: What's going to make people brilliant, I guess.

Thibault Sottiaux: If you're a creative person with good ideas, it's a great time to experiment.

Marina Mogilko: Can you show me a workflow everyone should be deploying today?

Thibault Sottiaux: One thing that I think this will mean is that...

Marina Mogilko: My audience is, some of them are developers, but a lot of them a knowledge workers. And they're very excited about AI and what we've been seeing with software engineering, right? Google says 75% of their code is now AI written. So it has been really transformed by AI. And you said something that this transformation will extend to all knowledge work over the next six months. So what do you think is gonna be changing for people who are knowledge workers?

Thibault Sottiaux: I think it's not that much that people are going to change as the technology has matured and now agents are reliable over, you know, long horizons. It's not very capable of using many different tools, you know, computer use being one of them, browser use. We have added over like a hundred different plugins that can tap into every little tool that you already use in your life. And the agent in GPT-55 is extremely reliable at it. So it's more that the technology has matured and is ready. And so everyone will be able to get benefits from an agent. Whereas before, you had to be a little bit technical and get in there. If it wasn't reliable, if it was struggling five minutes in, you was going to maybe have to go into the configuration. And obviously, that requires a technical background. That's not the case anymore.

So that's why I think it's going to become very widespread.

Marina Mogilko: What do you think is going to change the most and say, like, if you take a marketer, what's going to changes their day-to-day with agents?

Thibault Sottiaux: So you're going to look at what can you automate? Oh, maybe I spend like one hour doing market research. Maybe I spend one hour like summarizing a whole bunch of inbound and emails. Maybe I spent like two hours going through like prospects. And so a lot of the concepts that were like advanced concepts, maybe six months ago, such as like running something on a cron schedule is like nowadays, it's just like in the app. You can just say like, run this every 12 hours, do some market research, send me a PDF.

Marina Mogilko: And he's going to send it to you over email.

Thibault Sottiaux: Yes, and I can send it to you over email or you can just consume it in the app. Maybe you can print it. I did this a couple of weeks ago where I would summarize all the news from Slack and then print it on my printer physically like every day so I would have it with the coffee.

Marina Mogilko: Oh, wow, this is like very executive way of bringing your newsprint in our day. It's like maybe old school, I kind of want my newspaper.

Thibault Sottiaux: This kind of thing is just going to be mainstream.

Marina Mogilko: You know what I was really inspired by? I was watching one of your podcasts where you were talking with Greg about having this dashboard basically when you wake up in the morning, you have your coffee and it just tells you like, can you approve this and I'm gonna run it. So you just basically read through whatever your AI agent did while you were sleeping and you're approving and it's continuing its work. When do you think it's gonna be a reality?

Thibault Sottiaux: It's not that far off, the technology already exists, it's about packaging it. For example, last week we released Auto Review, which is the concept, it definitely blew my mind when we did the research on it. So you have the main agent doing actions and then you have a second agent that is verifying all the actions of the first agent and verifying that they are not doing anything that could be harmful to you and are low risk. And so that's an innovation that came out of our safety team and alignment team.

Primarily like alignment research and it allows you to run an agent much more like you know for longer periods of time autonomously even handling you know quite sensitive data without risking for example you know your agent like sending an email to a stranger with some of your personal information in there now that you have these pieces to make it more secure more safe and you're willing to give access to a lot of things in your life

Marina Mogilko: how do we organize our data? Imagine we're all getting ready to deploy our first agent, right? And the thing is, agent needs good data. And sometimes I've been working with mostly my tone of voice, like personal dossier, but then I realize that my agent would really benefit from knowing my strategy when it creates content for me. So what would you say to someone who's just starting out, how do they organize this data? What are the must-have files that they have to create?

Thibault Sottiaux: I organize everything on like local files on my computer. So I have a folder, I have my notes in there. I keep it like fairly tidy and, you know, I use my agent to organize it.

Marina Mogilko: And then it grows over time. That's my question. People work with little computers. I have a laptop that I travel with. I have two Macs, one in my studio, one my office.

Thibault Sottiaux: Yeah, so what we're going to see over the next three months is all of this is going to come to the cloud. And you're not going to have to manage like local files on just your laptop. And then, if you happen to travel and you're on your phone, oh no, suddenly it's not the same agent. And that's annoying because you have like, two separate entities that you need to sort of like, map to different things in your life. So a lot of this going to to come to to the cloud, it's going to manage its own memory, it's gonna help you manage files that are just hosted somewhere. There's no good solution yet, which is sort of surprising.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah, I'm just putting everything to my Google Drive and I'm connecting it to Google Drive.

Thibault Sottiaux: Yeah, that works. That works.

Marina Mogilko: What are the files that everyone should come up with for their agents if we're talking about productivity for knowledge workers?

Thibault Sottiaux: Yes. Tone of voice is a good one. And for that, maybe surprisingly, I don't recommend actually trying to explain your tone of voice. I recommend just including examples of past newsletters maybe that you published or snippets from recordings or messages that you sent to friends in different maybe professional and personal settings. I have a lot of notes around like projects that I have various like each project has its own folder with various files in it yeah and then contacts but you don't have to maintain everything in files you can also just rely on you know like all the productivity apps that you already have and then you know Codex for example will be able to go and pull the right information

Marina Mogilko: How do you know when you stay inside a project or you want to codex to actually build something like a tool or an app?

Thibault Sottiaux: Sometimes I feel like, you know, I need like a dedicated app for, for, for like a new use case. And then I go and like I create a new folder and then I just like experiment in there, but nowadays more and more, I feel like I need less of static apps that just can do one thing. And I rely just more on my agent to do everything for me.

Marina Mogilko: And if somebody starts using agents and somebody doesn't, what's the difference in their productivity in say one or three years?

Thibault Sottiaux: One to three years, that's like so far off the technology itself. Like we'll change so much by then. What we're going to see is that, you know, like people who are willing to adapt and discover these things are going to be quite a bit more productive. And it's going to enable to do like, you know, all these things that you sort of like, no, maybe put off. Everyone is going to, you know, get their own like little personal assistant on their computer. Doing all of the maybe filing your taxes, setting up email filters, telling you, and helping you get more in touch with your loved ones. That is something that will connect a lot of people.

Marina Mogilko: When I started using more AI, I felt this responsibility dilemma. You just mentioned like taxes, right? Yeah, AI can totally do taxes for me. And I have this automation that tells me every month how much tax I'm gonna owe and what tax strategies I could be deploying. Do I wanna be responsible for that? I don't know. Like when it comes to these tasks, also as an entrepreneur, I totally realized if you're just starting out today, you're much more productive. But if you're an existing entrepreneur, I wouldn't really fire anyone on my team because an AI agent can run it. I would just ask that person to use that AI agent. Where do you see this go? Because I feel like when I started running so many agents, I feel responsible that I need to check on them. I need verify their output. I'm like, oh, I'll just let somebody else handle it.

Ha ha.

Thibault Sottiaux: That's interesting. So at the end of the day, humans remain responsible. And then, you know, the way that we think about it is actually just really about augmenting your own capabilities and giving you a tool that allows you to do more than whatever was possible three months ago, six months ago. And take a lot of like the boring parts of the work as well, and just do that automatically for you. It is important as we see this for coding, for us, it's like if you produce a piece of code, you know you are responsible for it. If it breaks, it's not the agent's fault, it is your fault. Same for code review, you cannot outsource understanding. At the end of the day, humans remain in control and remain the people who need to understand the entire system and how things work.

So if you view it under the lens of augmenting your own productivity as a human, obviously you need humans. After all, we're building for ourselves to better our own lives.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah, it's just I feel like I've become much more productive first, but then I'm like, because I want to optimize so many things, my brain just started exploding.

Thibault Sottiaux: There is a pitfall of maybe falling too much into using it for everything and feeling like maybe you can do things but you're a little bit too early on the capability curve. And so maybe things will be possible with future models. That's good. That means that you're pushing and you're discovering where it's reliable, where maybe it needs a little bit more work, and maybe this will be something that you can't do in three months, six months.

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Now back to our conversation with Thibault. Okay, let's talk about web coding in general. So I shared before the podcast that in linguature, if we're actually web coding a lot of different apps and we have a technical person who can actually write code and he's really good at it, but then it's also us who can't. And when we web code something, it works great, but then the technical person comes in and says, oh, I would have structured it in a different way because if we wanted to grow it, like for example, we have this app that has 300 most useful words in English, right? And the way it was vibe coded in a perfect way. So it's usable, but if we want to extend it and make it like a thousand useful words, then the architecture is a little bit off. What would you say like, how would you approach vibe coding these days?

If you're thinking of building something like it's gonna be a big company, should you work with a technical person or still try and vibe code it?

Thibault Sottiaux: If the goal is to share it with a couple of people and try something out and build it for the joy of it, definitely just cutting it by yourself with the help of an agent is like, that's perfectly fine. If the goals is to scale it and make something that is successful for hundreds of thousands of people or more, having a technical person in the mix is still useful. I do expect that over time to go away Um, where, you know, you will. Have agents which are able to like, you know, understand the long-term maintenance aspects, you know the right structure, and be able to, like, handhold you all the way to scaling to like a very large and successful product.

Marina Mogilko: What do you think is the timeline? Because it's been changing so fast.

Thibault Sottiaux: We will see significant improvements towards long-term maintainability of code over the next six to nine months. In order to not need the help of someone more technical at all, that feels like quite a far off.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah. Well, what do you think in general about the future of software engineering? I was just moderating a panel around it with a, you know, deep learning AI. And we're talking about like how we're all had a consensus or six people on the panel that you just, you still need technical knowledge, but you also need to become a generalist. And because everyone is vibe coding apps, like as a creator, I would have never thought of building an app 10 years ago because I knew how expensive it was. Now I would build an app, but then I will see thousands of people using it, and I will experience some bugs, and I'll need a technical person. Are we going to need more software engineers or less with this?

Thibault Sottiaux: Yeah, I think we're going to see an explosion in the amount of, you know, infrastructure and apps that we built. And nowadays it's just, it's awesome because if you just have an idea, you can, you can build it, or at least in some shape, you could build it. If you're a creative person, you know, with good ideas, it is a great time to experiment. And then you can. Quickly prototype, iterate, and get to something that you feel might be successful either. And then it's hard to put a limit on how much software is enough. How much demand is there for more software in the world? How many more problems can we solve? It feels like we're at the very beginning of- Cuz I

Marina Mogilko: It feels like we keep coming up with problems we can solve. Exactly, right?

Thibault Sottiaux: Exactly. As long as that continues to be through and we're able to continue technological advancement, it feels like there will be demand for a lot of technical folks.

Marina Mogilko: Can you show me a workflow that everyone should be deploying today to maximize their productivity? Can you think of something?

Thibault Sottiaux: It really varies. It depends. One of the things that I do is I use it to stay in tune with what the world thinks, for example, about Codex. And so I receive like a daily summary.

Marina Mogilko: Can we build something from something like that?

Thibault Sottiaux: So let's do a new chat. For example, I am on a podcast talking about AI and Codex. Find relevant emails in my inbox and prepare draft replies based on what you know. About my priorities from memory. So you haven't built memories yet. But if you use Codex a lot, it will learn about yourself. But it's going to learn about memory from ChatGPT as well, right? Yeah, another one is go through popular internet sources and give me a breakdown of what Codex shipped over the last two weeks. We can go back to email. I have a messy inbox for Gmail, set up filters for it to keep.

Marina Mogilko: You know, I remember it, I think it was like 2019 or something. I spent a couple of days just organizing my emails and folders, and then I realized it's such a waste of time because I spent so much time.

Thibault Sottiaux: I want to plan a trip to, like, where should we go? Based on my calendar availability, right? Yeah. Or something. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because it can connect to my calendar. A trip plan and use my calendar, availability. To your planet, for example. And so it's going to go like here, you can see it's gone through your email. So this one is like I'm a podcast to talk about AI and Codex. It's already gone through your email, found several live threads related to today's thing. Went through the calendar, it's all still going through emails. So it's found like a bunch of things. Apparently you have like, you know. Yeah, and I'm with Codex, which is today. Yeah. Ha, ha, ha. And then here you have another one. So you can see we're doing a lot of things in parallel. You can just run little agentic threads.

Here you could say I am making a presentation. Put this in Google slide. And it will go and it will just prepare a Google slide for all of the content.

Marina Mogilko: The editing is gonna be within the app or I will have to leave and go to Google Slides.

Thibault Sottiaux: So there is an in-app browser as well. I don't know if you've set up your pad. No, not yet. So we also shipped like this cute little feature.

Marina Mogilko: Oh, I just saw it on your X.

Thibault Sottiaux: So now you can move this across, and you can see which threads it's still working on. So, for example, it's still summarizing codex updates. It's currently setting up some email filters. I don't want to make changes to your inbox, so I'm just going to stop this one. But yeah, this is sort of like a brief.

Marina Mogilko: Can you talk to me about this dashboard that I was talking about?

Thibault Sottiaux: You have a trip to Creed's plant now.

Marina Mogilko: Nice. That's how it went through my calendar. OK, so this morning, I actually asked my chat GPT, based on my queries, what app should I build? And it gave me five ideas. And this was one of the ideas where it's content repurposing. And can you rate it? So it was basically a very basic prompt. I gave it a link to my MD files. I created this app, but the only thing I wanted to be able to dictate into the app so it can convert it into an actual email newsletter, but I don't think it worked.

Thibault Sottiaux: Okay. So let's have a look. So this was content repurposing engine, you know, from all the posts. Okay. And then it just built all of that for you.

Marina Mogilko: Well, it built something too fancy. I'm like, let's just make it very simple.

Thibault Sottiaux: You were like, okay, this is a girl being being a little bit too ambitious here. Yeah. Yeah. And then it has. Oh, I see.

Marina Mogilko: Ah, A-B testing.

Thibault Sottiaux: It's like already a newsletter draft. Yeah, and actually I like that.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah, and actually I like that it didn't wait for my prompt, it just went ahead and generated.

Thibault Sottiaux: This is cool. It just did a lot of these things. By itself, it was like, you know, this is probably what you need. Yeah. And then the only thing that doesn't work is like voice input. I want to be able to dictate into the app. Yeah.

Marina Mogilko: Is it something that another prompt is gonna fix or?

Thibault Sottiaux: Yes, yes, so, we have voice dictation here, right, so.

Marina Mogilko: No, I mean into the up.

Thibault Sottiaux: Yes, yes, yes. So let's use it. Let's do a nested. Okay, so in the app, we don't have dictation working. So can you integrate it with the OpenAI Speech-to-Text API? For that, you will need an API key, but you can just make it up for now. And you can go through the latest documentation online to figure out how to integrate the Open AI Speech-To-Text into this app.

Marina Mogilko: That was a very sophisticated prompt. How do I know that I needed that prompt? Because I would never think about API keys.

Thibault Sottiaux: That's why sometimes you still need someone who is like a little bit technical. But a lot of these things that right now maybe are still a little bit in the realm of like, oh, you need more of a technical background are going to come and become mainstream. So maybe you need you need me today, but, you know, in three months is like it will be able to set all of this up. It will just connect it to your OpenAI account. And you know you don't need to set up like a separate API.

Marina Mogilko: And it's going to be able to just connect to everything. Okay, while it's building, can you talk about like the most sophisticated use case or maybe like the use cases that are very sophisticated in terms of workflow, but that change productivity tremendously for for people day to day, something that everyone could get inspired by.

Thibault Sottiaux: So you can say, like, you know, go through, you can tag a lot of different plugins. So you could say Gmail, calendar, if you have like docs, yeah. And be my chief of staff and give me a breakdown of my day, a summary of what is important. And prepare me. And then you just run this at the start of the day, and then you can be more specific than the example prompt that I gave here. Like some people that I've seen like, have like fairly sophisticated requests for like how to be prepared.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah, and like, where am I wasting my time? Should I be hiring someone to fix something where you see I'm spending most of my hours or building an app that's gonna, like, optimizations?

Thibault Sottiaux: You can really discuss with Codext and start to brainstorm about how you can streamline things. Your colors doesn't disperse with high consequence, so it seems like you're doing good.

Marina Mogilko: OK. Yeah, because I only put important stuff in the calendar. I don't put, like, day-to-day. OK, cool. What do you personally use and in what order for which tasks?

Thibault Sottiaux: So I use it for coding a lot, I use it to help strategize for the different pieces that we're planning to put out, like in what order, like the narrative to construct. So it's like, it's a great thought partner. Use it to like organize all my own notes throughout the day. So instead of taking notes in like a separate notes app, now I just take them straight into Codex. Oh, interesting. And it just builds up memories.

Marina Mogilko: Like you just start a new chat for anything you want to say.

Thibault Sottiaux: And I'm just like, hey, this is what I'm thinking.

Marina Mogilko: And then at the end of the day, does it automatically summarize it or you have to prompt it?

Thibault Sottiaux: Um, I prompted to like then, you know, dump everything into a doc. Um, but also it's like built up memories. I use it to, uh, often stay on top of an answer, like important unanswered, uh emails or Slack messages.

Marina Mogilko: Are you seeing this shift from more code work being done with AI to more productivity stuff or has it been equal?

Thibault Sottiaux: So, it is interesting to think about, you know, what is an engineer, what does a programmer do all day? And, like, already there, the majority of the time is not spent on coding, actually. So we saw a shift over time, you now, even including in our technical user base. Way over, like 50% of the tasks done on Codex are, like non-technical tasks today. Already. Yes.

Marina Mogilko: And it's been, what, a year since you...

Thibault Sottiaux: The app is only being three months. So we launched the apps three months, the Codex CLI, which was definitely for programmers. That was a year ago.

Marina Mogilko: So what are people using it for? What do you see? What are the use cases?

Thibault Sottiaux: There's a lot of like, help me plan, help me organize, thinking through thrips. Now with computer use and browsers, it can, you know, do things such as like order on DoorDash for you. Like, I'll do your shopping.

Marina Mogilko: Does it take long? I haven't tried it on browse yet, but sometimes the agentic browser's just like.

Thibault Sottiaux: No, we have the fastest computer use implementation out there. It's surprisingly quick. So you will see it click around.

Marina Mogilko: Can we ask it to go and download my LinkedIn Analytics?

Thibault Sottiaux: OK, so let's do add computer and then go to LinkedIn and download my analytics. And then the format we said, a spreadsheet. Excel spreadsheet, yeah. And create a spreadsheet, there we go. So let's see what it does. We'll use the desktop controls. This might take five to 10 minutes.

Marina Mogilko: So the difference from ChatGPT is that it can use your computer. Yes.

Thibault Sottiaux: It can use your computer, it's a full agent that works and has access to your browser, can click around on your apps as well. And you can look at it here, so it's already, it's visiting.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah, it is. It is already on my LinkedIn page.

Thibault Sottiaux: So let's see what it does over time. I think it's navigating. It's navigating here. Oh, it's saving. It's exporting something.

Marina Mogilko: It is already saving stuff. That's amazing. While we wait for him to finish, I wanted to ask you something. You dropped out of your PhD, right? Yes. After two weeks.

Thibault Sottiaux: After two weeks, that's right.

Marina Mogilko: To start a company. Would you recommend to someone who's doing their PhD or bachelor's or master's now and feel that they're just hating it? Is it a good time to quit or would you?

Thibault Sottiaux: This was a long time ago, this was almost 15 years ago, so I'm not sure if it's relevant.

Marina Mogilko: But it's interesting how the meaning of education has changed in these 15 years. What do you think from seeing all the innovation inside OpenAI, DeepMind, should people be still pursuing very deep education or should they just go out and start building?

Thibault Sottiaux: The reason I dropped out of my PhD is I just actually, after starting it, I felt like that was committing four years of my life to that specific subject was actually not what I wanted to do. And I had more ideas and more things that I wanted to try, and so I felt like the startup environment was right for me. I think it's very important to time and time again, in my own life, I've realized that it's important to follow your instincts and do things that give you energy.

Marina Mogilko: Was it the right decision for you?

Thibault Sottiaux: Absolutely. I had such a great time. I built the ad company for like a year and then I worked for Google. Initially, I was working on Google Maps and different parts, ads, and then I ended up working at DeepMind, which was during the golden ages of DeepMind, when it was a grand challenge after grand challenge. And then it became a little bit less interesting and around the time where everyone was killing. Uh, and like opening, I had proven that you could scale transformers, um, and create something like very compelling. And this was probably the road to, to building AGI. That's when, you know, I was like, just, uh, okay, let me go, just go work for opening eye. Um, and you know time and time again, it's sort of like, you know, challenging myself to pursue new things.

Marina Mogilko: So before we look at what is created, one final question. What do you think is gonna happen to our lives in three to five years from all the innovation that you've seen? Do you think we're gonna see this dramatic change that a lot of people are talking about or are they exaggerating?

Thibault Sottiaux: I think there is going to be dramatic change. I think it's important for us and for me personally to just really bring the benefits to everyone. And one thing that I think this will mean is that you will have the benefits, whether you're actively engaging with this technology or not. Today, you have to actively prompt and sort of be creative about what you're asking. And it's almost like the benefits that you get are. Definitely proportional to how good your prompting is. In the future, that will not be true. It will, to me, be very similar to going to a nice tailor, who instantly looks at you and gets you and is like, this is the kind of clothes that would make you shine and that is just right for you.

Marina Mogilko: So what will it depend on then? If it's not your prompting, what's gonna make people brilliant, I guess.

Thibault Sottiaux: Yes, it will be much more like benefiting from good advice from a friend or having a natural conversation like the conversation that we have right now.

Marina Mogilko: It's still like the ability to ask the right questions, not to necessarily prompt them.

Thibault Sottiaux: It will be about engaging as your authentic self in a conversation and then getting the appropriate help at the right time and benefiting from this ambient intelligence that is just like supporting the society. It has created a spreadsheet.

Marina Mogilko: There we go

Thibault Sottiaux: So it has downloaded all the analytics from...

Marina Mogilko: Well, it's okay. We needed but this is okay like if I ask it to do more specific because it did like one screenshot Well, we can

Thibault Sottiaux: What else would you like it? We could run it again.

Marina Mogilko: So high

Thibault Sottiaux: So I need more data, for example, impressions per post. So I am very lazy now with Codex, and I just do everything to avoid. So I mean more data impressions per posts.

Marina Mogilko: Yeah, same. I just use the whisper flow across all my, yeah. Okay, let us end this daily brief. It did it. Yeah. Oh, this is getting better. See?

Thibault Sottiaux: And then you can continue to go and you can get more advanced. If there is a workflow then that you like, then you know, you can use the skill creator. This is a skill by itself. And then, you could say like create a skill to capture this workflow such that I can run it every day. And then it will create a bespoke skill for you. So we can just collect analytics and edit to file.

Marina Mogilko: Okay, this is fascinating. Thank you so much. I feel like I have some work to do when I come back home tonight. This is really fascinating. Thank you for building it.

Thibault Sottiaux: Of course, yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you

Marina Mogilko: I also write a newsletter where I go deeper on AI tools that I use, career strategies and things I can't fit into a 30-minute podcast. It's free. Link is in the description.